Ideas for Uruk-Hai

[The_Witch_Pikmin]

These are just ideas and I guarantee they are going to either be op over/under-powered.

Uruk Scout
-Iron Sword, Shield, Bow (No power), 6 arrows.
-Chain chestplate (Projectile protection II), Leather trousers, Iron boots.
-Speed I.

-Pros: This is what you call an archer killer (Hopefully).
-Cons: Will replace skirmisher.


Uruk Crossbowman
-Bow (Power IV, Punch I), 1 arrow at a time.
-Leather tunic, Leather trousers, Leather boots. (Coloured differently to archer so it's distinguishable)
-Slow I.
-Shoots straight like a windlance.
-To reload it must wait 10 seconds and get a severe mobility drop. Activated by shift clicking or something.

-Pros: Adds more variety to the battle, keeps Rohan on it's toes.
-Cons: You either love this class or you hate it.



In regards to crossbow, I have three possible solutions that should (hopefully) make Riku happy:
1. Have the arrow be instant (like a windlance) or faster than normal, but have a drop and actually stick to a block so the player can tell how much they are off by.
2. Have the arrow be the speed of a normal arrow but fly straight.
3. Have it shoot like a regular archer with no arrow trajectory adjustments but regains it's one arrow as crossbow originally did.

I am more in favor of the first one as it requires an element of precision, but any could work. The only problem with the first two is whether they can be coded easily or not.

Another random idea for crossbow that I just want to throw out there is restocking at chests/cauldrons instead of shift clicking. It still only holds one arrow at a time and takes longer to restock than a regular archer, but faster than the original 10 seconds as it is forced to become a siege unit and glued to restock areas.


One final thing. Allow Uruk Torcher to blow up the wall as well as Berserker. It makes complete sense: Uruk Torcher has a torch and is also part of the Rohan class package. Just make it do the same thing as Berserker when it grabs the TNT, don't specialise it particularly for that reason.

[user avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/assassiniv/74.png" name="assassiniv"]14628767[/user] I want your opinion.

Strikethrough is a removed idea.
Italic is a new idea.

 

[assassiniv]

Both of the ideas are great, give the scout projectile protection 2 and remove the shield

 

[FN-2187]

riku is so gonna be triggered by pow 4, and with understanding. 1. flying straight removes skill, he argues, and 2. that's really hella op of an arrow

now for my own personal opinion - I love it, I really love it make it for many maps, but also maybe put a cap of how many can be on the battlefield.
scout is still trashy and useless like mercenary. u want an archerkiller? just go shieldman. a bow with those arrows is in effect useless.

I do like the idea of a multi mobility class, and I proposed one with an iron ax and a bow no pow and 6 wither arrows, he would be a much stronger but still not ridiculously op, give him slowness and or less armor

we do not need an archer killer. that's crossbow.

 

[De_Mik]

now for my own personal opinion - I love it, I really love it make it for many maps, but also maybe put a cap of how many can be on the battlefield.
scout is still trashy and useless like mercenary.

Mercenary is one of the best pointclasses. since it has strenght, it does a goof ammount of damage and has speed II which makes it the best class for chasing and cleaning enemies up. When I use it I got an average 10 killstreak.

 

[FN-2187]

[quote user_id="16009508" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Captain_R3x/74.png" name="Captain_R3x"]now for my own personal opinion - I love it, I really love it make it for many maps, but also maybe put a cap of how many can be on the battlefield.
scout is still trashy and useless like mercenary.

Mercenary is one of the best pointclasses. since it has strenght, it does a goof ammount of damage and has speed II which makes it the best class for chasing and cleaning enemies up. When I use it I got an average 10 killstreak.[/quote]


MERCENARY HAS STRENGTH? WHAT THE FUCK WHEN
WHY THE FUCK DID I BUY TOWN GUARD FUCK MY LIFE FUCK MY LIFE FUCK ME DANDY I WANT MERCENARY I DIDNT KNOW IT HAD STRENGTH OMG WHAT

 

[sjoerdtim]

MERCENARY HAS STRENGTH? WHAT THE FUCK WHEN
WHY THE FUCK DID I BUY TOWN GUARD FUCK MY LIFE FUCK MY LIFE FUCK ME DANDY I WANT MERCENARY I DIDNT KNOW IT HAD STRENGTH OMG WHAT

Hey there. Watch your language.
You've received a warning, do it again and you risk getting a forum ban.

 

[FN-2187]

[quote user_id="16009508" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Captain_R3x/74.png" name="Captain_R3x"]
MERCENARY HAS STRENGTH? WHAT THE FUCK WHEN
WHY THE FUCK DID I BUY TOWN GUARD FUCK MY LIFE FUCK MY LIFE FUCK ME DANDY I WANT MERCENARY I DIDNT KNOW IT HAD STRENGTH OMG WHAT

Hey there. Watch your language.
You've received a warning, do it again and you risk getting a forum ban.[/quote]

oh god not again

 

[The_Witch_Pikmin]

u want an archerkiller? just go shieldman.

Shieldman is not an archer killer. It can block arrows yes, but if Ranger or most other classes come closer to melee, it doesn't have much of a chance. My Scout class originally had a shield, but a shield is better for creating a wall rather than being mobile. Scout has speed I which can allow it to have a better chance at catching up to Ranger and can close in on Archers in less time. The projectile protection II may allow it to take one or two more hits from a bow. The bow can be used for finishing off escaping archers with low health or maybe stuff up Berserker a little.

 

[FN-2187]

[quote user_id="16009508" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Captain_R3x/74.png" name="Captain_R3x"]u want an archerkiller? just go shieldman.

Shieldman is not an archer killer. It can block arrows yes, but if Ranger or most other classes come closer to melee, it doesn't have much of a chance. My Scout class originally had a shield, but a shield is better for creating a wall rather than being mobile. Scout has speed I which can allow it to have a better chance at catching up to Ranger and can close in on Archers in less time. The projectile protection II may allow it to take one or two more hits from a bow. The bow can be used for finishing off escaping archers with low health or maybe stuff up Berserker a little.[/quote]

hes decent add him

 

[Rikumaru]

[quote user_id="16009508" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Captain_R3x/74.png" name="Captain_R3x"]u want an archerkiller? just go shieldman.

Shieldman is not an archer killer. It can block arrows yes, but if Ranger or most other classes come closer to melee, it doesn't have much of a chance. My Scout class originally had a shield, but a shield is better for creating a wall rather than being mobile. Scout has speed I which can allow it to have a better chance at catching up to Ranger and can close in on Archers in less time. The projectile protection II may allow it to take one or two more hits from a bow. The bow can be used for finishing off escaping archers with low health or maybe stuff up Berserker a little.[/quote]

Shieldman is an archer killer. The time taken to draw a shield is 0.25 seconds while the time to charge a 50% shot, which is the lowest damage shot possible on empire war with archer (Due to no arrow spam plugin) is 0.5 seconds. This means any shieldman should be able to block any arrow shot at the shieldman if it's from archer. And it should be pretty obvious shieldman can outmelee archer easily.

 

[assassiniv]

It seems u guys keep forgeting about the team/map elements.
to reach the archers the shieldman will have to face a line of soldiers who can easily beat him, cons that can deal massive damage to him and than fight the archers.
the archers will be defenders most of the time and therefore they will have the hight advantage, the shieldman will have to pass a long way untill he will be able to reach the archer.
lets not forget the lag, space and number factors, the shield cant cover the shieldman from all diraction and therefore archers can still shot at his back when he is not facing them. The lag effects by slowing the shield drawing from 0.25 sec to sometimes a whole second. The archers are most of the time not alone and stay at "archer nests" to gain power from numbers. The poor shieldman will get spammed with arrows all the time and wont be able to lower his shield to move faster and by that will become an easy target for normal melee classes. The number of the archer also allow them to lower the shieldman health before he reach them and after that they can keep shooting him while he fights one of them (or all of them gang up on him and lets say they were 3 of them and 2 voted, it will take 2 hits from each archer to kill the shieldman and the shieldman need to hit each archer 3 times to kill him)

 

[FN-2187]

[quote user_id="8653932" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/TheWitchGuy/74.png" name="TheWitchGuy"][quote user_id="16009508" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Captain_R3x/74.png" name="Captain_R3x"]u want an archerkiller? just go shieldman.

Shieldman is not an archer killer. It can block arrows yes, but if Ranger or most other classes come closer to melee, it doesn't have much of a chance. My Scout class originally had a shield, but a shield is better for creating a wall rather than being mobile. Scout has speed I which can allow it to have a better chance at catching up to Ranger and can close in on Archers in less time. The projectile protection II may allow it to take one or two more hits from a bow. The bow can be used for finishing off escaping archers with low health or maybe stuff up Berserker a little.[/quote]

Shieldman is an archer killer. The time taken to draw a shield is 0.25 seconds while the time to charge a 50% shot, which is the lowest damage shot possible on empire war with archer (Due to no arrow spam plugin) is 0.5 seconds. This means any shieldman should be able to block any arrow shot at the shieldman if it's from archer. And it should be pretty obvious shieldman can outmelee archer easily.[/quote]

you know its lit when riku agrees with u

 

[The_Witch_Pikmin]

Unless of course Riku is wrong. Any class can out melee regular archer because of it's low armour and wooden sword. A smart archer does not go directly into fights, therefore it should not be caught out by a class that must sacrifice its momentum to block an arrow. However, this does not apply to ranger as it can just run away (Speed I) or straight up fight shieldman using it's stone sword and arrow spray that (I don't think) has a charge to shoot and therefore turns it into a prediction battle of when ranger will fire off the spray. As Assassiniv said, shieldman may (or will in my case) encounter ping lag that could (or will in my case) prevent it from blocking arrows, and even if it did block every arrow no archer would be stupid enough to try and melee shieldman.

One final thing, this thread here is to discuss how effective the two classes I have proposed are and any better ways to improve them or use this features. I would rather you not derail and say that another class does it better without coming up with a good solution that is relevant to the class' main traits.

TL;DR: Shieldman does counter archer and its variants, but is not an archerKILLER. We should use this thread to discuss how to make the two classes better or use aspects of them in other classes.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that ranger needs a nerf, we've had countless threads that have done that and I agree that no direct nerf is needed.

 

[Rikumaru]

Unless of course Riku is wrong. Any class can out melee regular archer because of it's low armour and wooden sword. A smart archer does not go directly into fights, therefore it should not be caught out by a class that must sacrifice its momentum to block an arrow. However, this does not apply to ranger as it can just run away (Speed I) or straight up fight shieldman using it's stone sword and arrow spray that (I don't think) has a charge to shoot and therefore turns it into a prediction battle of when ranger will fire off the spray. As Assassiniv said, shieldman may (or will in my case) encounter ping lag that could (or will in my case) prevent it from blocking arrows, and even if it did block every arrow no archer would be stupid enough to try and melee shieldman.

One final thing, this thread here is to discuss how effective the two classes I have proposed are and any better ways to improve them or use this features. I would rather you not derail and say that another class does it better without coming up with a good solution that is relevant to the class' main traits.

TL;DR: Shieldman does counter archer and its variants, but is not an archerKILLER. We should use this thread to discuss how to make the two classes better or use aspects of them in other classes.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that ranger needs a nerf, we've had countless threads that have done that and I agree that no direct nerf is needed.

Right, so what I'm getting at here is you are complaining about archers killing you from quite some distance away based from the fact that "A smart archer does not go directly into fights". You should be able to dodge any arrows from 20+ blocks away with pure reaction time alone, and if you are within 20 blocks of the archer you simply predict when the archer will shoot and then quickly block. Since their draw time is longer than your block time you will slowly gain ground on them as a shieldman. Wherever or not the archer doesn't want to melee, they are damn well gonna have to if they continue the pattern of shooting at the shieldman chasing them. This isn't even mentioning the restock nerf tim did on archer which effectively neutered the archer class giving you a seizure for approximately 4 seconds while your arrows slowly replenish.

If you want to make the point of "Well theres an entire team with them"; A: Soldier / spearman is way better for capturing flags and defending them except for a select few flags such as the bridge on moria. B: In my experience melee classes get kills faster than archer alone does on most points in a map (with some exceptions again).

The last thing shieldman needs is a buff to make it competitive vs melee classes because then, you have a class which hard counters archer and then it does good into normal melee classes.

As for the classes you suggested,
Crossbow without arrow drop is a skilless archer with almost zero counterplay. It's a class designed for people who can't aim. People would just use the class to target certain players down and then you would have those players simply only playing on evil team as a result to avoid such a class. Giving the class arrow drop would make the class require skill to use while also providing counterplay to it.

Uruk scout is just a straight up bad idea. You give a class an iron sword AND a bow AND speed, to then give it speed? That alone is already OP without mentioning the fact that you gave the class projectile protection 2 making it incredibly hard to kill with archer or any class which utilizes arrows (this includes spearman). This class could actually outtrade an archer using it's bow alone, which is completely stupid.

Honestly you people forget that archery is just as much a part of pvp as meleeing is. How unfun would it be if an archer class was made with "melee protection 2" or some nonsense?

 

[assassiniv]

Right, so what I'm getting at here is you are complaining about archers killing you from quite some distance away based from the fact that "A smart archer does not go directly into fights". You should be able to dodge any arrows from 20+ blocks away with pure reaction time alone, and if you are within 20 blocks of the archer you simply predict when the archer will shoot and then quickly block.

Here come the lag, number and map factors.
First lets take a look at the map factors, most maps are castles ("castle siege" should point it out) which means that in most cases the attacking team will have to pass through some small places that slows them down and leave them with no place to run/dodge/hide (the ladders at helms deep, the bridge and stairs at moria, the gate at edoras, ect') this means the shieldman would have no option to dodge which leaves them with the only option of slowing down and using the shield.
Now lets add the lag factor, the lag effects the players by leaving them with even less time to react to the arrow (which is not the 0.5 reloading time vs 0.25 drawing shield time that u said but actually the time that takes from the sec the player leaves the right mouse botton and to the time the arrows reach the player) sometimes even less than 0.25 sec that you said they get (0.5-0.25=0.25). The shieldman get so few time that unless they face an archer that lag harder than they do they will not have the option to run and draw the shield in time.
And last factor, the number factor. So i guess you decided to completely ignore the other class but thats ok, the number of archers alone is enough. Most archers are in groups of 2-4.

Spoiler: the so called "archer killer" vs 3 archers

Now the shieldman is slowly getting closer to the archers, all the soldiers, spearman and other classes completely ignored him and it took him 5 minutas to walk toward them and they completely ignored the option that 1 of them will leave to a diffrent spot that will allow him to shoot the shieldman's back, now its 1 shieldman vs 3 archers (who all remembered to vote for sharpness). The shieldman finaly reach melee range and hit, at this sec all 3 archers fire their arrows and hit the shieldman (who has less than 0.25 sec to react) and deal 4 hearts (they all fully loaded their bows), he hits againt and deal to 1 archers 7 hearts, 2 archers stab him each 1 time and deal 3 hearts meanwhile the last archer run behind his teamates to eat a porkchop, the shieldman hits again a diffrant archer and regen, 2 archers hit him again and leave him with 1 heart. At this point he lost the fight, hea would eather hide behind his shield and 1 of the archers will go behin him and stab him or he will hit the archer again (yet not killing him) and than get hit by the archers and die.

He will loose the fight against almost every group of archers that is bigger than 1.
The so called "archer killer" is not an archer killer and never ment to be archer killer. He can protect teamates while they recover, capture flags, distract archers but he is not ment to rush toward the archers and kill them.

This isn't even mentioning the restock nerf tim did on archer which effectively neutered the archer class giving you a seizure for approximately 4 seconds while your arrows slowly replenish.

Still not helping coz the archers have more than 4 sec (due to the map factor) before the shieldman reach them and smart archers reload his bow before he reach 0 arrows.

If you want to make the point of "Well theres an entire team with them"; A: Soldier / spearman is way better for capturing flags and defending them except for a select few flags such as the bridge on moria. B: In my experience melee classes get kills faster than archer alone does on most points in a map (with some exceptions again).

Thats a good point but im almost every map there is that point when the teams are getting stuck (stairs at moria, helm's deep ladder, gate and the finale gate, edoras's gate, osgiliath's brothel and tomb, ect') and in this point the team needs someone to kill the archers or he gets stuck for sometimes the entire game. In points like this shieldman is useless due to the fact that the archers have team (a whole new factore riku is ignoring all the time) that will mostly kill the shieldman before they will even have the chanse to get to the archers (they are sort of free kills for all the other melee classes due to their low armour and sometimes getting beat up by cons).

So here is a buttom line
1. shieldman are NOT archer killer
2. there is that thing called team
3. shieldman are not suppose to kill the archers, just to reduce their effects
4. archers are cunts and need to be removed
5. pikmin's idea for an actual archer killer is a good idea

 

[Rikumaru]

Comparing 1 shieldman to 3 archers, what a joke. Yeah lets compare 1 shieldman to 3 of anything. Spoliers, the team of 3 usually wins. As for "lag", what a one sided arguement, what about if the archer is lagging? The archer is dead is what. As for the arrow travel time, you account for that when fighting an archer, WHICH by the way when I said a 0.5 second draw time, that was for a 50% charged arrow which doesn't deal too much damage at all. It takes 1 second to fully draw an arrow. I've actually used shieldman vs archer in duels against people who seem to think archer does fine into shieldman. "there is that thing called team": I've already explained to you that in almost all cases a soldier or spearman is more useful for a team than an archer. Of course if you still don't believe this you can feel free to try this out on siege with me.

 

[The_Witch_Pikmin]

Without elaborating much as I don't have time, I would like to say soldier and spearman outclass Shieldman by far. They would have a better chance of killing archer than Shieldman would ever have as they don't need to sacrifice for their momentum.

Assassiniv, please don't get toxic as it to tones the seriousness of your points down.

 

[FN-2187]

Without elaborating much as I don't have time, I would like to say soldier and spearman outclass Shieldman by far. They would have a better chance of killing archer than Shieldman would ever have as they don't need to sacrifice for their momentum.

Assassiniv, please don't get toxic as it to tones the seriousness of your points down.

alright if you two are done, whether or not shield is an archer killer, I don't see why we need to address archer right now - its been nerfed like heck and now u want a class that's sole purpose is to kill it?
I made this point on the server awhile ago and ill make it now - if u compare donor to point to vote classes, donor have cool mechanics while point are more or less same as vote, some weaker (town guard, mercenary, ith soldier is as strong as mordor's VOTE class on osgiliath). I would like to see more variety in classes, introducing new mechanics, not a class that's sole purpose is to kill another class, especially one that has suffered so many nerfs. QuirkyMockingjay straight up told me shes, more or less, quitting the server because of all these archer nerfs

crossbow is ok, I agree that arrowdrop is a decent idea, but I would like to see more diversity in archer classes

 

[The_Witch_Pikmin]

You do make a good point there. I originally went for the idea of a multi weapon class as scout had shield, but I jumped at the idea of Assassiniv's suggestion of removing the shield and giving it projectile protection II instead. I still left the shield idea on the description with a strike through as it is only a suggestion.


In regards to crossbow, I have three possible solutions that should (hopefully) make Riku happy:
1. Have the arrow be instant (like a windlance) or faster than normal, but have a drop and actually stick to a block so the player can tell how much they are off by.
2. Have the arrow be the speed of a normal arrow but fly straight.
3. Have it shoot like a regular archer with no arrow trajectory adjustments but regains it's one arrow as crossbow originally did.

I am more in favor of the first one as it requires an element of precision, but any could work. The only problem with the first two is whether they can be coded easily or not.

Another random idea for crossbow that I just want to throw out there is restocking at chests/cauldrons instead of shift clicking. It still only holds one arrow at a time and takes longer to restock than a regular archer, but faster than the original 10 seconds as it is forced to become a siege unit and glued to restock areas.

 

[FN-2187]

You do make a good point there. I originally went for the idea of a multi weapon class as scout had shield, but I jumped at the idea of Assassiniv's suggestion of removing the shield and giving it projectile protection II instead. I still left the shield idea on the description with a strike through as it is only a suggestion.


In regards to crossbow, I have three possible solutions that should (hopefully) make Riku happy:
1. Have the arrow be instant (like a windlance) or faster than normal, but have a drop and actually stick to a block so the player can tell how much they are off by.
2. Have the arrow be the speed of a normal arrow but fly straight.
3. Have it shoot like a regular archer with no arrow trajectory adjustments but regains it's one arrow as crossbow originally did.

I am more in favor of the first one as it requires an element of precision, but any could work. The only problem with the first two is whether they can be coded easily or not.

Another random idea for crossbow that I just want to throw out there is restocking at chests/cauldrons instead of shift clicking. It still only holds one arrow at a time and takes longer to restock than a regular archer, but faster than the original 10 seconds as it is forced to become a siege unit and glued to restock areas.

get rikus attention and his opinion, I would love to see this class and some other classes from the suggestion thread added sooner than later before they are forgotten in the dust for classes that are made during implementation of maps.
these class threads are well thought-out classes and rarely get addressed and I think that's a big issue .-.