troll nerf without nerfing troll

[General Iroh]

troll is op.
troll is crap.
troll is strong don't touch it.
troll doesn't take arrows.
I hear these statements too much, so I figured a balance like this ought to do it justice. this would require some lobby redesign or something, but I think the solution is simple. troll wins all 1v1s versus noobs and some good players but loses all 2v2s hands down. so instead of nerfing troll (I like the golem skin but if u remove it u will nerf it and make a point class unplayable) just set it up so that troll takes 2 player count on a team. what do I mean?
lets say there are 8 players, and the ratios set it up so without troll it would be 3 dwarf vs 5 modor
someone goes troll, the troll would count as 2 playercount. dwarfs would have more players to counter, and troll would have less bodyguards,
the value of troll goes up, but the effectiveness of a tank remains but the ability to kill it goes down.

implementation: 2 ways. 1: add the troll class selection sign in the lobby and program to automatically add 2 (this is ideal). 2: if someone goes troll midgame, then the ratios adjust and their name is counted twice (if they die its -2, the person who kills it receives either twice the kills, or kills+1) and auto balance kicks in if necessary

 

[Rikumaru]

Being 2x as strong as other classes doesnt mean its worth 2x the players. The advantage is way bigger than that. Right now troll has literally no counterplay, they just faceroll anything that tries to fight them. Its gotten to the point of when I see one I just avoid it / give up fighting it.

Archers should be able to counter troll, this is how it worked on EW v1.0 but currently trolls hitboxes are bugged where you cant even hit them half the time since all the arrows get reflected. This should get fixed along with the arrow resistance getting removed. Trolls having 60% dmg reduction ontop of 30% arrow resistance and their armor is just silly.

 

[General Iroh]

Being 2x as strong as other classes doesnt mean its worth 2x the players. The advantage is way bigger than that. Right now troll has literally no counterplay, they just faceroll anything that tries to fight them. Its gotten to the point of when I see one I just avoid it / give up fighting it.

Archers should be able to counter troll, this is how it worked on EW v1.0 but currently trolls hitboxes are bugged where you cant even hit them half the time since all the arrows get reflected. This should get fixed along with the arrow resistance getting removed. Trolls having 60% dmg reduction ontop of 30% arrow resistance and their armor is just silly.

thing is, hammer counters troll. a single hammer vs a single troll nearly kills troll without realzing hammer can outrun the troll, eat and hit again. if there is another player then its dead. also, hammer rapes troll on the stairs. troll does have alotta counters and this maeks it so that troll is easier to kill. any other troll nerf and u make a class ppl paid points for, completely useless.

if the archer hitbox was increased, dwarfs could go all archers and hold any flag. not to mention windlasses which already can kill trolls, now barely would have to aim.

"troll has no counterplay, its advantage is more than that" then why does troll rarely if ever win 1v2s?

 

[Tobberz]

I have the high grond

Please make relevant polls. I.e: Whether you agree with this idea or not.

 

[General Iroh]

I have the high grond

Please make relevant polls. I.e: Whether you agree with this idea or not.

why haven't you voiced your opinion? you clearly had a problem with the high grond, but the point of the thread is to hear what ppl especially those who run this server have to say about this.

 

[Tobberz]

[quote user_id="9802996" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Tobberz/74.png" name="Tobberz"]I have the high grond

Please make relevant polls. I.e: Whether you agree with this idea or not.

why haven't you voiced your opinion? you clearly had a problem with the high grond, but the point of the thread is to hear what ppl especially those who run this server have to say about this.[/quote]

Since you seemed unable to create a poll, I did it for you.

And I think the way of nerfing troll is by nerfing troll, not by changing the team ratios.
Principally because that would get done quicker, but secondarily because it's a better idea.

 

[General Iroh]

[quote user_id="17701852" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Lord_Ish/74.png" name="Lord_Ish"]

I have the high grond

Please make relevant polls. I.e: Whether you agree with this idea or not.

why haven't you voiced your opinion? you clearly had a problem with the high grond, but the point of the thread is to hear what ppl especially those who run this server have to say about this.

Since you seemed unable to create a poll, I did it for you.

And I think the way of nerfing troll is by nerfing troll, not by changing the team ratios.
Principally because that would get done quicker, but secondarily because it's a better idea.[/quote]


I don't think it should get a nerf and heres why
(rikus gonna rage but hear me out)
troll is fine as is. on maps like erebor, tirith, and morgul, killing a troll is not a problem because theres space to maneuver and you can outrun and outregen the troll. mind you taking down a troll is no small task, but it can be done by anyone with half a wit. im gonna detail how to do so for those who are too slow to know
step 1: probe the troll, staying just beyond its reach. at this point u are able to hit it because of its enlarged hitbox. unfortunately u cant do this forever since troll does have a good walk and not take kb.
step 2: go in with all u got, but watch that health. if youre a spearman, you will crit him from the side, perhaps even circling him forcing him to turn. dol has an even easier time with this strat. if youre ithilien soldier then use your jumpboost to your advantage. you can fully dodge troll's hits.
step 3: when your health dips below 2-4 blocks, whatever you deem safe, you pull away at full sprint. if youre a spearman, turn around and throw a spear at the troll. it slows the troll regen, and gives u hunger so u can eat food. so eat the damn food, regen, throw another spear, eat more food, and youre back to almost full by the time you re engage the troll. at that point u should win as dol, spearman Might take another iteration. as ithilien u pull bck and build up hunger by running and jumping.
why this doesn't work on moria: no class has jumpboost maneuverability or spears to create hunger. moria its different, on moria trolls are stronger, which makes sense since they cost alotta points.
how to kill a troll on moria: windlass, kb, or grab a buddy (which is why troll should count as 2)
kb:
Step 1: go in and hit the troll as much as u can where the player box is, in order for troll to take kb. now, troll has kb resistance but only around 50% of the time so u do that enough and the bugger will go flying

no buddy no kb: I recommend skirmisher, but its gonna take u a lot without a buddy/windlass/kb. repeat the above using speed to build hunger.

troll is killable you just need to know how to do it. I like troll because it is a disruption of the meta. it doesn't take kb, it hits hard and it takes damage. in return, its slow and therefore killable if you know how to. a troll nerf such as allowing arrows to do regular damage makes troll unusable because of the giant ass hitbox which riku is also calling to be enabled to take arrow damage
I don't know how else u can nerf it and not make it unusuable.. if u nerf the damage you will need to increase the durability even more so it can still push.
troll is a disruption to the meta, no doubt. you cant stryfe it, but tahts the point. it forces you to adapt, and if u do adapt you can kill it easily. if you don't adapt, you are doomed to fail. but honestly I'm tired of all strong classes being "give it a sharper sword and/or speed and/or speed". troll is a new flavor, and I would like to see it remain that way.

 

[thebeserker]

[quote user_id="9802996" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Tobberz/74.png" name="Tobberz"]

[quote user_id="9802996" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Tobberz/74.png" name="Tobberz"]I have the high grond

Please make relevant polls. I.e: Whether you agree with this idea or not.

why haven't you voiced your opinion? you clearly had a problem with the high grond, but the point of the thread is to hear what ppl especially those who run this server have to say about this.

Since you seemed unable to create a poll, I did it for you.

And I think the way of nerfing troll is by nerfing troll, not by changing the team ratios.
Principally because that would get done quicker, but secondarily because it's a better idea.[/quote]


I don't think it should get a nerf and heres why
(rikus gonna rage but hear me out)
troll is fine as is. on maps like erebor, tirith, and morgul, killing a troll is not a problem because theres space to maneuver and you can outrun and outregen the troll. mind you taking down a troll is no small task, but it can be done by anyone with half a wit. im gonna detail how to do so for those who are too slow to know
step 1: probe the troll, staying just beyond its reach. at this point u are able to hit it because of its enlarged hitbox. unfortunately u cant do this forever since troll does have a good walk and not take kb.
step 2: go in with all u got, but watch that health. if youre a spearman, you will crit him from the side, perhaps even circling him forcing him to turn. dol has an even easier time with this strat. if youre ithilien soldier then use your jumpboost to your advantage. you can fully dodge troll's hits.
step 3: when your health dips below 2-4 blocks, whatever you deem safe, you pull away at full sprint. if youre a spearman, turn around and throw a spear at the troll. it slows the troll regen, and gives u hunger so u can eat food. so eat the damn food, regen, throw another spear, eat more food, and youre back to almost full by the time you re engage the troll. at that point u should win as dol, spearman Might take another iteration. as ithilien u pull bck and build up hunger by running and jumping.
why this doesn't work on moria: no class has jumpboost maneuverability or spears to create hunger. moria its different, on moria trolls are stronger, which makes sense since they cost alotta points.
how to kill a troll on moria: windlass, kb, or grab a buddy (which is why troll should count as 2)
kb:
Step 1: go in and hit the troll as much as u can where the player box is, in order for troll to take kb. now, troll has kb resistance but only around 50% of the time so u do that enough and the bugger will go flying

no buddy no kb: I recommend skirmisher, but its gonna take u a lot without a buddy/windlass/kb. repeat the above using speed to build hunger.

troll is killable you just need to know how to do it. I like troll because it is a disruption of the meta. it doesn't take kb, it hits hard and it takes damage. in return, its slow and therefore killable if you know how to. a troll nerf such as allowing arrows to do regular damage makes troll unusable because of the giant ass hitbox which riku is also calling to be enabled to take arrow damage
I don't know how else u can nerf it and not make it unusuable.. if u nerf the damage you will need to increase the durability even more so it can still push.
troll is a disruption to the meta, no doubt. you cant stryfe it, but tahts the point. it forces you to adapt, and if u do adapt you can kill it easily. if you don't adapt, you are doomed to fail. but honestly I'm tired of all strong classes being "give it a sharper sword and/or speed and/or speed". troll is a new flavor, and I would like to see it remain that way.[/quote]
Troll regens faster than other classes barring berserker

 

[General Iroh]

[quote user_id="17701852" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Lord_Ish/74.png" name="Lord_Ish"][quote user_id="9802996" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Tobberz/74.png" name="Tobberz"][quote user_id="17701852" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Lord_Ish/74.png" name="Lord_Ish"][quote user_id="9802996" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Tobberz/74.png" name="Tobberz"]I have the high grond

Please make relevant polls. I.e: Whether you agree with this idea or not.

why haven't you voiced your opinion? you clearly had a problem with the high grond, but the point of the thread is to hear what ppl especially those who run this server have to say about this.[/quote]

Since you seemed unable to create a poll, I did it for you.

And I think the way of nerfing troll is by nerfing troll, not by changing the team ratios.
Principally because that would get done quicker, but secondarily because it's a better idea.[/quote]


I don't think it should get a nerf and heres why
(rikus gonna rage but hear me out)
troll is fine as is. on maps like erebor, tirith, and morgul, killing a troll is not a problem because theres space to maneuver and you can outrun and outregen the troll. mind you taking down a troll is no small task, but it can be done by anyone with half a wit. im gonna detail how to do so for those who are too slow to know
step 1: probe the troll, staying just beyond its reach. at this point u are able to hit it because of its enlarged hitbox. unfortunately u cant do this forever since troll does have a good walk and not take kb.
step 2: go in with all u got, but watch that health. if youre a spearman, you will crit him from the side, perhaps even circling him forcing him to turn. dol has an even easier time with this strat. if youre ithilien soldier then use your jumpboost to your advantage. you can fully dodge troll's hits.
step 3: when your health dips below 2-4 blocks, whatever you deem safe, you pull away at full sprint. if youre a spearman, turn around and throw a spear at the troll. it slows the troll regen, and gives u hunger so u can eat food. so eat the damn food, regen, throw another spear, eat more food, and youre back to almost full by the time you re engage the troll. at that point u should win as dol, spearman Might take another iteration. as ithilien u pull bck and build up hunger by running and jumping.
why this doesn't work on moria: no class has jumpboost maneuverability or spears to create hunger. moria its different, on moria trolls are stronger, which makes sense since they cost alotta points.
how to kill a troll on moria: windlass, kb, or grab a buddy (which is why troll should count as 2)
kb:
Step 1: go in and hit the troll as much as u can where the player box is, in order for troll to take kb. now, troll has kb resistance but only around 50% of the time so u do that enough and the bugger will go flying

no buddy no kb: I recommend skirmisher, but its gonna take u a lot without a buddy/windlass/kb. repeat the above using speed to build hunger.

troll is killable you just need to know how to do it. I like troll because it is a disruption of the meta. it doesn't take kb, it hits hard and it takes damage. in return, its slow and therefore killable if you know how to. a troll nerf such as allowing arrows to do regular damage makes troll unusable because of the giant ass hitbox which riku is also calling to be enabled to take arrow damage
I don't know how else u can nerf it and not make it unusuable.. if u nerf the damage you will need to increase the durability even more so it can still push.
troll is a disruption to the meta, no doubt. you cant stryfe it, but tahts the point. it forces you to adapt, and if u do adapt you can kill it easily. if you don't adapt, you are doomed to fail. but honestly I'm tired of all strong classes being "give it a sharper sword and/or speed and/or speed". troll is a new flavor, and I would like to see it remain that way.[/quote]
Troll regens faster than other classes barring berserker[/quote]

I mentioned food regen. reread. troll gets half a heart every 2 seconds. any spearman can eat food, and then throw another spear and that creates an almost constant regen 1, which outpaces troll regen by far, not to mention spears taking .5 to 1 heart, which is 4 more seconds the troll needs to maintain the health

EDit: I remember riku, u used troll but u get higher killstreaks with literally all other classes except troll. so you want the one class u cant get a high kill streak with to be nerfed. huh interesting.

 

[thebeserker]

you can outrun and outregen the troll.

No talk of food nor spearman in that sentence, therefore your argument is invalid.

 

[General Iroh]

[quote user_id="17701852" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Lord_Ish/74.png" name="Lord_Ish"] you can outrun and outregen the troll.

No talk of food nor spearman in that sentence, therefore your argument is invalid.[/quote]

scroll up, look at step 3. and because you are so blind let me post it here for you to see

step 3: when your health dips below 2-4 blocks, whatever you deem safe, you pull away at full sprint. if youre a spearman, turn around and throw a spear at the troll. it slows the troll regen, and gives u hunger so u can eat food. so eat the damn food, regen, throw another spear, eat more food, and youre back to almost full by the time you re engage the troll.

maybe if you had bother to read the big paragraph you wouldn't be stuck arguing on facts that had already been cleared up.

 

[thebeserker]

maybe if you had bother to read the big paragraph you wouldn't be stuck arguing on facts that had already been cleared up.

You mean this paragraph?

troll is fine as is. on maps like erebor, tirith, and morgul, killing a troll is not a problem because theres space to maneuver and you can outrun and outregen the troll. mind you taking down a troll is no small task, but it can be done by anyone with half a wit.

Doesn't say spearman once there, just saying. It does address later, but it only addresses spearman in limited capabilities which is bad if you are factoring spearman as you're main method of attack considering how limited it is.

 

[General Iroh]

[quote user_id="17701852" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Lord_Ish/74.png" name="Lord_Ish"]

maybe if you had bother to read the big paragraph you wouldn't be stuck arguing on facts that had already been cleared up.

You mean this paragraph?
[quote user_id="17701852" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Lord_Ish/74.png" name="Lord_Ish"]troll is fine as is. on maps like erebor, tirith, and morgul, killing a troll is not a problem because theres space to maneuver and you can outrun and outregen the troll. mind you taking down a troll is no small task, but it can be done by anyone with half a wit.[/quote]
Doesn't say spearman once there, just saying. It does address later, but it only addresses spearman in limited capabilities which is bad if you are factoring spearman as you're main method of attack considering how limited it is.[/quote]

the big paragraph. the big paragraph addresses spearman in detail. and spearman is a very versatile class. it has decent armor, medium damage, short range beyond close quarters, and has the ability to regen the fastest of any class on empirewar. that allows it to kill a troll. if u wanna know how maybe you should read the big paragraphs.

 

[Rikumaru]

EDit: I remember riku, u used troll but u get higher killstreaks with literally all other classes except troll. so you want the one class u cant get a high kill streak with to be nerfed. huh interesting.

Why are you resorting to personal attacks when discussing a topic with ANOTHER player? That doesn't even make sense.

I mentioned food regen. reread. troll gets half a heart every 2 seconds. any spearman can eat food, and then throw another spear and that creates an almost constant regen 1, which outpaces troll regen by far, not to mention spears taking .5 to 1 heart, which is 4 more seconds the troll needs to maintain the health

Regen 1 = 0.5 hearts every 2.5 seconds. Please look up critical information before spouting nonsense comparisons between classes. And EVEN if they had the same healing or spearman had MORE, it doesn't take away from the fact that the spearman needs over DOUBLE / TRIPLE the hits to kill the troll. And then compare the difficulty in using both classes in a fight. Troll requires far less skill and gives you far more strength than any other melee class and as for ranged, ranged does literally nothing vs trolls. Also the fact that spearman can only force regen 3 times before running out of spears. There's a reason many players simply don't bother fighting trolls and just ignore them.

 

[General Iroh]

[quote user_id="17701852" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Lord_Ish/74.png" name="Lord_Ish"]EDit: I remember riku, u used troll but u get higher killstreaks with literally all other classes except troll. so you want the one class u cant get a high kill streak with to be nerfed. huh interesting.

Why are you resorting to personal attacks when discussing a topic with ANOTHER player? That doesn't even make sense.


[quote user_id="17701852" avatar="https://cravatar.eu/helmavatar/Lord_Ish/74.png" name="Lord_Ish"]I mentioned food regen. reread. troll gets half a heart every 2 seconds. any spearman can eat food, and then throw another spear and that creates an almost constant regen 1, which outpaces troll regen by far, not to mention spears taking .5 to 1 heart, which is 4 more seconds the troll needs to maintain the health[/quote]

Regen 1 = 0.5 hearts every 2.5 seconds. Please look up critical information before spouting nonsense comparisons between classes. And EVEN if they had the same healing or spearman had MORE, it doesn't take away from the fact that the spearman needs over DOUBLE / TRIPLE the hits to kill the troll. And then compare the difficulty in using both classes in a fight. Troll requires far less skill and gives you far more strength than any other melee class and as for ranged, ranged does literally nothing vs trolls. Also the fact that spearman can only force regen 3 times before running out of spears. There's a reason many players simply don't bother fighting trolls and just ignore them.[/quote]

spearman gets food regen, and that outpaces trolls healing.
you have been one of the most vocal advocates for a troll nerf, yet you never play troll anymore. you played it once or twice, and got no more than 2 or 3 kills. so a great pvper wants a class nerfed that he cant get kills with, that's what doesn't make sense.
troll is killable, its very killable. spearman does it all the time. if troll were unkillable morgul would never go to the tower. if troll were unkillable then 1 troll would offsent the entire balance on tirith causing orcs to win effortlessly. I don't know where you get this idea of troll being broken op from. troll is strong yes. but broken op? hell no. spearman is simply the easiest way to kill it.