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Planned Constructor Class rework

This suggestion has been accepted for implementation and will be added in a future update.
redbommer

redbommer

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V2 Sage
Constructor class rework

A lot of people brought this up, this is an area to compile suggestions of changes to the constructor class.
Mine are as follows:

Core issue with the class
Lets address the elephant in the room, why does the class need a rework?

Well from my experience it can drag the game to a grinding halt.
Helms deep's throne room is a good example of this! With proper defenses you can easily hold out for 10 minutes in this hallway, which isn't fun for attackers, and isn't really challenging for the defenders. Meaning people leave the server and that's not great.

so what can we do? (My suggustions)

I suggest we remove the constructor class entirely. The constructor and the engineer are occupy a similar enough niche but the engineer is underutilized mostly due to the versatility of the constructor classes block placement.

The power of the constructor class varies heavily depending on flag and its difficult to balance overall. So removing it is the best solution in my eyes.

Empowering engineer as a more balanced alternative to the playstyle would be easiest.

Empowered Engineer

People don't feel the class is effective, so we should make it more impactful

-reducing the cost of resources needed to build engineer structures , (maybe keeping build duration the same to avoid spam?)
- More varied siegeworks, similar to other game support classes.

Attackers engineer (goal is to elimiate chokepoints via alternate routes)
-build catapults?
-ladders (function similar to ladders on helms deep)
- tunnels (function similar to team fortress 2 teleporters, where you have to set up two entrances, that bypass walls at the cost to cooldowns/damage to it)

Defenders engineer (goal is to bolster current defenses to be utlized better)
-Bolster build (limit 1 per gate) increase the max HP of the gate by 10? x?
-Anti-Siege works? (Archer walls?, burning oil?, medieval siege works?)
-Archer fortifications? that deal more damage?

alternatively in place of blocks for engineer give it ladders.

Alternatively Limit the area where the can place blocks

Thats all I got, thoughts?

--------------------------------
Adding on other comments from Dr_Olex
I don't think we have to remove constructor at all. The main problem stems from the spammy nature of the wooden planks and the insane structures people build with it. Am I wrong in remembering that we added the material-pools for teams in an attempt to limit this spam and oversaturation of constructor wood on maps?

Is constructor wood even affected by or reliant on team materials? AFAIK it is not, so have we not just ended up back on square one with constructor? The only difference being that you can't CLOG gates.

I know you wanted to give players some sense of creative freedom by giving them freely placable blocks.
In large quantities this will be insufferable. If we start limiting building to certain areas or make a bunch of *'s for the building mechanic, it will just make the gameplay feel clunky and confusing.

Personally, I think the way to go is to limit the planks, if not removing them completely.
I think we can already give players a sense of creative freedom using our pre-built structures (The ones Engineer is currently using) Especially if we expand on them a bit.
Give a constructor 8 planks instead of 16?
Let them have 12 but make them only able to restock 2 at a time?


My suggestion for the 2 building classes:

Constructor
-Can place down prebuilt structures (barricades, cover and obstacles of different shapes and sizes) similarly to our current engineer, but is able to pick between multiple blueprints, not just the same identical barrier every time. (These structures can be placed pretty much anywhere there is space for it).
-Gets a small batch of planks that can be used to patch up holes and repair gates.

Engineer
- Can build and operate machinery in predetermined locations (Turrets, Catapults, Resupply stations, Ladders & Rams*)
- Not able to build as freely as constructor and is instead "tied" to certain areas of the map

This would make the classes play rather differently. While both are there to benefit the team, they do it in different ways. Constructor plays with the rest of the team in the heat of it all and assists them by changing the landscape of the battlefield, adding cover and making it harder for the enemy to progress.
Engineer on the other hand plays more independently as their "area" might not always be the frontline, and they are also able to deal damage on their own and have a larger impact themselves.

We could still give Engineer a small(er?) amount of blocks similar to constructor that can be used to repair gates.
*Ladders and rams could possibly be built by both classes?

In my perfect imaginary EW-world structures wouldn't take as long to build and trolls would have some way to damage structures more than other classes. Rocks for example.
 
I think a good way to fix the spammy nature of constructor is to add a cooldown on the block you place, just like how engineer constructs a build but in between blocks, there’s a cool down before another block comes on. No cooldown is what makes constructor dominate over engineer; that and its flexibility to build anything they want. Remember when engineer used to place barricades over the caves of Helms Deep. While strong, it was not annoying since attackers had ways to counter it. With constructor having more freedom and faster block placement than engineer, it tops it completely.
 
V3 Constructor seems stronger because it lost its counters, Uruk Torcher, Mage and Corsair Raider that could all destroy minutes of constructors work in seconds are no longer available. Reaver axe and troll boulders are best current way to combat wood spam but are still out paced by the speed that constructor can restock and replace any damage they deal to the wood spam. Reimplementing the Point Shop as a new
✨Silver Shop✨ to buy extra projectile ammo, food and importantly the Constructor Perk for the axe / adding a level of efficiency to constructor / engineers axe.


I do like the other ideas of adding set locations for engineers to build structures of their choosing probably by cycling with blue prints to create siege engines for various purposes of their chosing like balistae, catapult, restocks and tunnels are good ideas to draw people to playing engineer and create more diversity.
 
I think good points have been made, adding more counters to it or cd to the block place ability would make its effectiveness diminish. Another idea i had was to have a timer on blocks, meaning there placed but despawn after like 60 seconds or something. so there is the fortification, but it has to be slowly maintained and over time its pushed back. I also think making engineer structures cheaper and more effective would go a long way as well.
 
Compiled from ideas by commander canon, star, defenders4life (Conversation between Defenders4life)

Bolded is questions by Commander Cannon
paragraphs text by Defenders4life

What would you have the developers do to change the spawn camping/blocking problems?


Well theres 3 main factors here Obviously constructor is a poorly balanced class but in all honesty the blocks are the only main thing going for it, it has (slightly) less damage, (slightly) health and (moderately) less armor than the standard soldier Second, the rules are poorly stated for a good portion of maps for which it plays "cant block spawn" when spawn is on/near/in front of the point? At what point does it become viable to build and not become "spawn blocking" and even outside constructor getting someone low and they fall back into spawn can be considered "spawncamp" To deal with constructor there are 2 or 3 ways to nerf it Sorry 4 1 being direct nerfs to the class itself 2 being other classes getting buffed and equipped to handle dealing with blocks

3 being map reworks to prevent blocks from being placed in certain areas (more work than the first 2) 4 being a nerf to blocks itself (aka block decay after a set timer, my reccomendation 30 seconds) Personally i think 2 and 4 are best, due to minimal work And thats more or less it


How would you like the other classes to be buffed with dealing with the blocks?


3 different ways Fire to burn down a fortification (different but interesting) Satchel charge/explosive 1 time use replenishable on a class (not really a bomb just something like troll to destroy fortifications in a similar manner) Or equip more classes with axes 3rd is a but underwhelming but minorly and marginally effective the more players are in server Fire mechanics would be quite interesting Satchel charges would definitely be a stretch but would deal with the "plugged keep with blocks BS" Prob with nerfs and buffs is ya dont wanna make something too oppressive or too unplayable K-2 — Yesterday at 10:43 AM So Ive discussed with star before that if ya wanna nerf the blocks itself ya gotta merge constructor and engineer so if ya blueprint a fortification in it stays so there is a "permenant fortification" of sorts


That doesn't sound too bad. I think the fortifications need to be smaller though, so they fit in more areas


Yep And specific window barricades Map specific Currently as it stands, if your creative enough with constructor you could effectively play a sapper, sabotaging routes, gates, etc and play backlines the whole time At the cost of.. 1 less man at the line Granted, if ya did the constructor/engineer merge, its still possible to do these things.. but it would take MUCH longer


For dealing with spawnblocking/camping, what do you think about having people spawn in with like a 5 second buff of haste2/regeneration4?


Problem Cuz the current LOCATION of spawns Even in normal combat without constructor People run back into their spawn to get away ALL THE TIME Some spawns are already near the point

So, should we just move spawns further away?
Some in front And the respawn timer is instant There are 2 main ways to deal with it

Moving the spawns further away and repositioning them, would increase the amount of time it takes for defenders/attackers to get back into the fight. I find that if you kill someone, it is hard to heal up fast enough before someone comes back.
Yep Moving them away is an option But for some maps difficult Another way Is a respawn timer


Sounds good How long do you think respawn timers should take?


Again- it would have to be map dependent
Theres no "one shoe fits all" for this
 
Ruchard_ said:
V3 Constructor seems stronger because it lost its counters, Uruk Torcher, Mage and Corsair Raider that could all destroy minutes of constructors work in seconds are no longer available. Reaver axe and troll boulders are best current way to combat wood spam but are still out paced by the speed that constructor can restock and replace any damage they deal to the wood spam. Reimplementing the Point Shop as a new
✨Silver Shop✨ to buy extra projectile ammo, food and importantly the Constructor Perk for the axe / adding a level of efficiency to constructor / engineers axe.


I do like the other ideas of adding set locations for engineers to build structures of their choosing probably by cycling with blue prints to create siege engines for various purposes of their chosing like balistae, catapult, restocks and tunnels are good ideas to draw people to playing engineer and create more diversity.
Click to expand...
As an engineering major, I approve.

For real, I agree that adding onto the engineer with various siege machines and also making it as a way to counter the constructor will fix both problems. Constructor is in almost every map; regional classes like Uruk Reaver and Lossonarch Axeman cannot be relied on in every map so having engineer as a soft counter will help balance the constructor while giving the engineer another usage.
 
  • my idea is to merge constructor and engineer into one single class, remove wood planks from the inventory and only have axe + paper + food. Players should be encouraged to gather their own resources rather than simply restocking planks at restocks, so the ability to place wood doesn't disappear, you just need to find a material pile and mine it. Plus, this allows us to use the class for engineering purposes even on maps that aren't designed to have wood placed (i.e: siege weapons on Moria, Osgiliath, etc...).
  • The structure placement speed should be massively increased, and the cost of wood decreased.
  • There should be a different/better system at submitting resources to the team inventory, but I don't know what it would be. Please help figure this one out!
  • In addition to that, it would have a cap of 12 planks or an equivalent of 3 wood logs at maximum in the inventory.
  • Moreover, I strongly believe mining the material piles should be like mining blocks in vanilla Minecraft; you destroy the block, it disappears and it's item is dropped on the ground. I like the authenticity of the game in that sense, it's cute and also reminding us that we're playing Minecraft.
  • To make siege equipment placement more obvious (i.e: when there's a green "!" hologram at certain locations where you can place rams, siege towers, siege ladders, etc...), there should be a Title that displays on the screen saying that "a siege structure can be placed nearby..." and a subtitle of "use your axe to place it" when you approach such a location.
To address a few concerns I've seen arise in this forum post:
- Engineers aren't limited to one blueprint. They can already switch blueprints using the "F" key. I believe we should make the actionbar hint for it permanent, as long as the item is being held.
- more siege weapons and material (ballistas, catapults, bolster builds, etc...)
- I do not think tunnels are a good idea for our server. I believe this mechanic would be either way too incongruous or overpowered or both. I just don't see it fitting Empire War
- Cooldown on placement of individual blocks sounds like a reasonable idea, I could talk with Cotander about that.
- the ability to improve your power of destroying placed structures (blocks or blueprints) using the silver shop is brilliant and is pretty much what we were hoping to do! You purchase little improvements for your fist/axe that increases your wood destroy speed using silver. Definitely will add that whenever we manage to code and design the silver shop. It's a difficult task so might take a while D:, but 100% planned
- I don't like the idea of having regions where you can't place anything, but I do think it's important to implement to protect spawns (I sometimes hear players complain about spawn blocking, uncool). But I still think it should pretty much be limited to just that. I don't want to have to set it up for gates or other annoying areas. Just deal with it, there's usually enough ways to work around that and it doesn't happen every game anyway. Good defense also exists, guys.
- For now, if my suggestion is to be adopted, I would wait before creating a "counter" because it could turn out that it doesn't need a counter.
- Smaller barricades, yes of course. In fact any moderator can already set that up now. Ask the devs for details on how to, it's fairly easy.
 
I think a way to fix it could also be by giving attacker builders more wood than the defenders, since the defenders usually have time to prepare a huge building and then just maintain it once the battles reaches it. if the attackers are able to build and maybe break faster, the game would not as quickly become sluggish and just become 20 minutes of breaking wood blocks while the defenders place the block back as soon as it breaks, which makes the game very boring. Although I think a decay timer on the blocks or having the constructors need to go out and collect wood first are better ways to stop this from happening.
 
I might be a tiny minority, but I thoroughly enjoy the effect constructor has on battles. Without constructor it would not really be a siege. I enjoy it both from the defender side and the attacker side. I enjoy the process of figuring out how to overcome the always different defensive fortifications. It makes battles more tactical. And if I can't overcome them, so be it. Defenders did a good job. As someone not great in pvp constructor has almost always been my favorite class. (cough op halbedier) (Even in late v2 when he only had 6 wood.)


Anyways here's my observations and ideas:
  • Engineer is not remotely ready to replace constructor as it is ineffective and removes most of the creativity of building fortifications in freestyle.
  • 30 second decay timer would be crazy. NO, redbommer xD
  • Overall redbommer's ideas sound like they might work after 3 years of development, maybe.
  • I agree with LimeeFox that we should remove wood from the inventory and make it be collected. That would already be a significant nerf and make constructor gameplay less of a suicide speedrun. It would also allow us to limit constructor use to flags which have wood-piles. (I don't know how to make team inventory not break this, unless only engineer can use it.)
  • Woodcap sounds reasonable, but the real difference is how easy it is to get wood on respawn.
  • One thing not mentioned yet is that removing the need to craft would make the gameplay a lot smoother. (especially if we're removing wood on respawn)
  • I still don't know how I feel about the team resource pool, I feel like it could be hard to prevent bad teammates draining it. Especially with bigger player numbers. Also right now it's pretty useless, because engineer is pretty useless. (at least compared to constructor)
  • I think it is easy enough to submit resources to team inventory. I would do it if it was useful. Sometimes I still do it when I don't want to die with my wood.
  • Maybe a bit less related, but we could encourage players not to quit mid battle. Maybe a endgame reward of some sort. (50 silver for not quitting should be simple to implement right?)
  • I like Grissum's Idea of making the engineer a counter to the constructor. Not sure how though. I like the idea of engineer getting explosives rather than a super axe though, because with an axe you can just dig a 2 by 1 hole in anything, explosives could have a bigger delay and just feel better.
 
I think a block decay would solve nothing and give just about everybody a headache. Constructors lose their hard work after a period of time, but people who have to overcome that 'hard work' still have to go through the pain of overcoming it.

I think a better solution might be to prevent people from what I will call 'prepping flags' where constructors set up massive nightmarish defenses that suck out all the fun of the battle as the attackers are stuck going nowhere are the defenders are left slaughtering their opponents. (Minas Tirith's 4th flag during the sponge migration/grimsalde event comes to mind.)
To rephrase; people should not be allowed to build at a flag that the battle/attackers have not reached yet. If the fighting is at Flag A constructors should not be allowed to run behind to Flag B and start working there. While logically prepping flags makes sense, it makes for very poor gameplay.

This is a PvP server, not a Creative one. if you want to build massive fortifications in peace there is always EQ.
 
LimeeFox said:
  • my idea is to merge constructor and engineer into one single class, remove wood planks from the inventory and only have axe + paper + food. Players should be encouraged to gather their own resources rather than simply restocking planks at restocks, so the ability to place wood doesn't disappear, you just need to find a material pile and mine it. Plus, this allows us to use the class for engineering purposes even on maps that aren't designed to have wood placed (i.e: siege weapons on Moria, Osgiliath, etc...).
  • The structure placement speed should be massively increased, and the cost of wood decreased.
  • There should be a different/better system at submitting resources to the team inventory, but I don't know what it would be. Please help figure this one out!
  • In addition to that, it would have a cap of 12 planks or an equivalent of 3 wood logs at maximum in the inventory.
  • Moreover, I strongly believe mining the material piles should be like mining blocks in vanilla Minecraft; you destroy the block, it disappears and it's item is dropped on the ground. I like the authenticity of the game in that sense, it's cute and also reminding us that we're playing Minecraft.
  • To make siege equipment placement more obvious (i.e: when there's a green "!" hologram at certain locations where you can place rams, siege towers, siege ladders, etc...), there should be a Title that displays on the screen saying that "a siege structure can be placed nearby..." and a subtitle of "use your axe to place it" when you approach such a location.
To address a few concerns I've seen arise in this forum post:
- Engineers aren't limited to one blueprint. They can already switch blueprints using the "F" key. I believe we should make the actionbar hint for it permanent, as long as the item is being held.
- more siege weapons and material (ballistas, catapults, bolster builds, etc...)
- I do not think tunnels are a good idea for our server. I believe this mechanic would be either way too incongruous or overpowered or both. I just don't see it fitting Empire War
- Cooldown on placement of individual blocks sounds like a reasonable idea, I could talk with Cotander about that.
- the ability to improve your power of destroying placed structures (blocks or blueprints) using the silver shop is brilliant and is pretty much what we were hoping to do! You purchase little improvements for your fist/axe that increases your wood destroy speed using silver. Definitely will add that whenever we manage to code and design the silver shop. It's a difficult task so might take a while D:, but 100% planned
- I don't like the idea of having regions where you can't place anything, but I do think it's important to implement to protect spawns (I sometimes hear players complain about spawn blocking, uncool). But I still think it should pretty much be limited to just that. I don't want to have to set it up for gates or other annoying areas. Just deal with it, there's usually enough ways to work around that and it doesn't happen every game anyway. Good defense also exists, guys.
- For now, if my suggestion is to be adopted, I would wait before creating a "counter" because it could turn out that it doesn't need a counter.
- Smaller barricades, yes of course. In fact any moderator can already set that up now. Ask the devs for details on how to, it's fairly easy.
Click to expand...

in addition to my most brilliant idea from above, I'd like to add that non-constructors/builders should only be allowed up to 2 logs (so 8 wood) at a time
 
marcoiscool said:
I think a way to fix it could also be by giving attacker builders more wood than the defenders, since the defenders usually have time to prepare a huge building and then just maintain it once the battles reaches it. if the attackers are able to build and maybe break faster, the game would not as quickly become sluggish and just become 20 minutes of breaking wood blocks while the defenders place the block back as soon as it breaks, which makes the game very boring. Although I think a decay timer on the blocks or having the constructors need to go out and collect wood first are better ways to stop this from happening.
Click to expand...
The problem with this is it’s not just defenders doing the constructor problem, attackers often do it to delay the defenders.
 
Distraction said:
I think a block decay would solve nothing and give just about everybody a headache. Constructors lose their hard work after a period of time, but people who have to overcome that 'hard work' still have to go through the pain of overcoming it.

I think a better solution might be to prevent people from what I will call 'prepping flags' where constructors set up massive nightmarish defenses that suck out all the fun of the battle as the attackers are stuck going nowhere are the defenders are left slaughtering their opponents. (Minas Tirith's 4th flag during the sponge migration/grimsalde event comes to mind.)
To rephrase; people should not be allowed to build at a flag that the battle/attackers have not reached yet. If the fighting is at Flag A constructors should not be allowed to run behind to Flag B and start working there. While logically prepping flags makes sense, it makes for very poor gameplay.

This is a PvP server, not a Creative one. if you want to build massive fortifications in peace there is always EQ.
Click to expand...
I think stopping people from Prepping flags is a phenominal idea. I've also recently gotten in the idea that engineer should be a anti-constructor kit (i.e. Firebombs that destroy blocks) and set breaching charges on walls to open new pathways and routes. which create new fronts to be fortified against.
 
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